Curse

Chewbacca Defense · Aug 21, 2006, 05:24 PM // 17:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by RandomEngy

Remember if the TR is at full health, his self-healing does not benefit the team at all.

That's the truth! From a team-play perspective, TR's add only a little benefit to a team.

Curiously enough, TR's are almost like Cheetah's in nature - highly specialized. Survival of the build relies heavily on teams that are not focused on team-play. HAHA, you could say TR's Cheetah all the time!

The truth itself · Aug 21, 2006, 05:26 PM // 17:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by glountz

1)1Vs1 means nothing.
2)You devoted half your skillbar to counter one Touch. What if you don't meet one? What if you meet four? I believe in addition the rest of your skillbar is devoted to e-management.
3) Malaise ends when you hit 0 energy. Any clever touch ranger will do focus swapping to get rid of malaise.

1) Backfire. Only completely stupid touchies would run OoB with this on them. You assume touchies are stupid players. BTW, Backfire doesn't hit at all the whole rest of their skill bar AND is easily removed.
2) Diversion. Yeah, if you hit Vamp touch/bite. And again, you assume the touchie to be stupid and use his skill while div his on him. A clever touchie will simply run away waiting the hex to wear off. And Diversion can handle one touchie. Not two. Or three. Or four.
3) Blackout. Wow. You disabled yourself and the touchie for... What, 6-7 seconds? It's a draw. Not a winning move. Useful before calling a spike, though.
4)KD chain. I forgot to mention, again, that touchies are completely stupid and won't use evade stances when a frenzied hammer warr will strike their face. Wild blow? You will have problems to build the AD needed for your KD chain, then.
5) Kiting. I should mention that if you force your opponent to kite, then its a first step to victory. While kiting you, your opponent don't do anything. More, if you run faster than him, you will win on the long run, lowering is HP (and forcing energy use to heal), and forcing him to run instead of actually doing damage on the opponent.

I used Touch ranger's build. I found it to be a cheap build, extremely powerful in random situations (RA, AB).
Only teamplay win over it (by calling spikes on them, cripple them and ordering all your party members to flee them), but for unorganised newbies, it is extremely hard to overcome it. What I mean is that an unorganized team of Touchies will almost always win over an unorganised team of anything else.

Again, Im' not against the overall clever use of Expertise to diversify the use of secondary professions for the ranger, but the copying of Vamp touch boosted this build toward imbalance.

I agree 100% with you.

Quozz · Aug 21, 2006, 05:54 PM // 17:54

As someone previously stated, touchers are only effective in random battles. Actually the build is quite poor as it has no range and its dps is low. However, that said I do believe the build is broken for places like Ft Aspenwood. The reason being all the npcs hanging around that don't have a clue as to what a toucher is. No other build can tear through the NPCs in this mission like a toucher can with no support. Factor in the turtles, hammer warriors and then a toucher or two and its good game Kurzicks your hosed. Doesn't work as well on the flip side because of those fore mentioned turtles and hammer warriors.

In my opinion, don't nerf the build just make a few minor changes to Aspenwood and missions like it. If the NPCs are tweaked so they have more effective skill sets then touchers will be relagated to the confines of random arenas which is where a build like this belongs (build that relies heavily on the skills rather than player skill).

luxor9 · Aug 21, 2006, 05:54 PM // 17:54

I like how the warriors here are saying they can kill us with KD's. I was fighting exactly that, a KD w/e and an assasin. Both on me, sure I got knocked down a couple times, but I was still able to take both of them out by myself. Not claiming they were the best of the best, but I don't remember ever being killed by a warrior. Those are my targets ; ]

I play my vampire all the time he's great fun, and I'm getting pretty decent at it. Yes there is actually some skill in who you choose to attack and how you react to certain tactics.

An assasin actually had me nervous as he managed to interupt my throw dirt with shock and was doing some good damage for a second there. I realized I hadn't even used whirling lol, then I woke up and put it on and he ran off after a couple bites, eventually only to be caught up with later for death. That did teach me something though, I used to always throw dirt first move but now I might wait a second incase of that shock.

Anyways.. I love the vampire, and the hate I always receive lol. I mean it's almost gauranteed after a victory to hear, noob toucher!! or god I hate touchers, even if they lost with a toucher on their team lol.. I love it, sure there's many occasions where someone is ready for me and I'm the focus of the whole team and I'm killed. But most of the times it's me disabling your warriors and assasins and thumpers, bring em all at same time I dont mind. My teamates are going after your monk as I distract and kill you.

Vampires are god damn generals. Outside of RA I doubt it lol but to me that's the most fun arena to fool around in anyways. No waiting time just right into it. I've yet to try an all vampire squad in TA but I imagine fun times ahead.

All this was unneccessary but so is the whole thread so it fits perfect.

Chewbacca Defense · Aug 21, 2006, 06:10 PM // 18:10

Another build that's decent in disabling (not killing) touchers/casters.

N/W

Flurry
Spinal Shivers
etc...

Weapon: Cold Damage Sword

Basically just cast Spinal Shivers and a cover hex on the toucher/caster and flurry away. Will interrupt most of their touches, if not all. However, you'll have to communicate to a teammate to take them down.

Not the most effective, but extremely fun.

MooseyFate · Aug 21, 2006, 06:11 PM // 18:11

I agree they can be countered, but they are so popular that it is a problem. Not fun if every build you bring into high-touch-ranger areas needs to be a counter to that one build. Not cool at all.

But the good news is that there are tactics for any build to counter a touch ranger (sorry if these have been addressed, only read some posts).
1) Run
2) Leave them alone

Run
Most touch rangers don't heal well if they can't touch things. If one is going after you just run. If they have degen on them, certainly run. Even if you don't have a run skill and they do, you can still reduce the number of touches by running from them. I've been about to kill a touch ranger with apply poison and running (at a W/R), but then an Assasin ally went to fight them and the touch ranger was back in action in no time. So running can be deadly against them. Even if they have troll, it's less healing for them if you run. The problem is, everyone on the team needs to know this tactic for it to work against a decent one.

Leave them alone
If your party can out-heal a touch ranger, outheal the ranger and ignore them. They can only heal themselves. Once the rest of the opposing party is gone, the touchie shouldn't be a big problem to deal with. Remember the run tip mentioned above though. It's so common to see one almost dead and make the vital mistake of thinking you can kill it real quick. Though some people can, far less than half the people who think they can, actually can.

Mera Regila · Aug 21, 2006, 06:32 PM // 18:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by glountz

1)1Vs1 means nothing.
2)You devoted half your skillbar to counter one Touch. What if you don't meet one? What if you meet four? I believe in addition the rest of your skillbar is devoted to e-management.
3) Malaise ends when you hit 0 energy. Any clever touch ranger will do focus swapping to get rid of malaise.

Wither ends as well, but you can bring them down to 0 energy which is helpful. Her skillbar could kill pretty much anything else in ADDITION to touchers.

Quote:

Originally Posted by glountz

1) Backfire. Only completely stupid touchies would run OoB with this on them. You assume touchies are stupid players. BTW, Backfire doesn't hit at all the whole rest of their skill bar AND is easily removed.

The whole REASON i suggested backfire for is because they couldn't use OoB to regulate their energy, and if they were stupid and did that would work too. You should pay more attention to the first post.

Quote:

Originally Posted by glountz

2) Diversion. Yeah, if you hit Vamp touch/bite. And again, you assume the touchie to be stupid and use his skill while div his on him. A clever touchie will simply run away waiting the hex to wear off. And Diversion can handle one touchie. Not two. Or three. Or four.

Not all touchers look at their effects bar before they use their touches, you could even hit them mid cast with it, they don't have to be dumb to be caught with diversion. Even if you cought an evasive stance, or an OoB with it, that would be equally good.

Quote:

Originally Posted by glountz

3) Blackout. Wow. You disabled yourself and the touchie for... What, 6-7 seconds? It's a draw. Not a winning move. Useful before calling a spike, though.

The whole point is ordering your team to attack the touch, then using blackout. Wow, you have no idea how blackout works do you? It disables you for 5 seconds and the touch for 7-8, the touch is disabled for longer than you, he cant heal himself, or manage his energy, your team can kill him in that period.

Quote:

Originally Posted by glountz

4)KD chain. I forgot to mention, again, that touchies are completely stupid and won't use evade stances when a frenzied hammer warr will strike their face. Wild blow? You will have problems to build the AD needed for your KD chain, then.

Do you think evasive stances last forever? Its a matter of target switching. You charge your combo on the touch, he uses evade stance, switch to one of the casters, kill the caster, switch back to the touchie.

Quote:

Originally Posted by glountz

5) Kiting. I should mention that if you force your opponent to kite, then its a first step to victory. While kiting you, your opponent don't do anything. More, if you run faster than him, you will win on the long run, lowering is HP (and forcing energy use to heal), and forcing him to run instead of actually doing damage on the opponent.

ROFL, somone's never done serious gvg. If EVERYONE doesnt kite, your team is doomed from the start, a monk standing and tanking a warrior? GG. Runnign around to mitigate touch damage is a brilliant way to simply ruin their dps, they will give up and chase someone else, who will in turn, kite themselves. Throwing the touchie's dps way off. It seems to me all your arguments depend on the touch in particular being experianced, an experiance ANYTHING ELSE, also pwns, touch rangers are no exception. Also, about 75% of touchies are inexperianced as it were.

For your last post, the difference between counterablility and balance isn't too great. If a build is as EASILY counterable as this one, it is balanced. Touchies being clever coming up with a cross-class build:
The World: ZOMGZOMG IM SO NOOBY I GET PWNED BY TOUCH RANGERS!!! ANET, NERF, NERF, NERF THE TOUCHIES LIKE YOU DID EVERY OTHER GOOD BUILD ANET PLEASE HELP THE NOOBS!!!!!!!!!

Align · Aug 21, 2006, 06:40 PM // 18:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by luxor9

I like how the warriors here are saying they can kill us with KD's. I was fighting exactly that, a KD w/e and an assasin. Both on me, sure I got knocked down a couple times, but I was still able to take both of them out by myself. Not claiming they were the best of the best, but I don't remember ever being killed by a warrior. Those are my targets ; ]

Must've been extremely crappy then. All you have to do is spam healing signet and touchers cant, well, touch you.

Ghull Ka · Aug 21, 2006, 06:59 PM // 18:59

You guys have got it all wrong.

The REAL solution to touch rangers is: Donuts.

It's a known fact. Rangers love donuts. If a you meet a toucher, just toss a few donuts the other direction. The toucher will lose focus, scramble off to grab the delicious donuts and you'll be free to go about your business.

pcredsox99 · Aug 21, 2006, 07:05 PM // 19:05

yes touchies are effective but any monk tank combo can take it down i just use hamstring to keep it away from monk and keep choping and when does anyone say hey how bout i go take on this touch ranger 1on1 with more then 2 ppl around touchies always get beat thats why i wont play one in ab because their no good for capping because there are always lots of ppl they can just run around picking off the odd person

arbiter · Aug 21, 2006, 07:05 PM // 19:05

real solution = anet nerfs them. Its the IWAY of faction battles. Sure theres many ways to counter it, but you have to change you build so you are basically anti touch instead of what would actually help agasint real builds, so you cant counter them unless you specificly set up to do so. Prot spirit does not reduce the dmg, dark escape doesnt reduce the dmg, nothing reduces the dmg from them, and every noob who cant find a real build uses touch. Its almost inpossible to kill them solo because they can dodge all your attacks, all the dmg they do heals them, and they just run away if u get close.

Just nerf it

unholy guardian · Aug 21, 2006, 07:13 PM // 19:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ghull Ka

You guys have got it all wrong.

The REAL solution to touch rangers is: Donuts.

It's a known fact. Rangers love donuts. If a you meet a toucher, just toss a few donuts the other direction. The toucher will lose focus, scramble off to grab the delicious donuts and you'll be free to go about your business.

QFT

still, it seems the paragons will only help touchies... maybe the dervish can take um down

Kuja · Aug 21, 2006, 07:19 PM // 19:19

The solution is vampiric bite shouldn be a 'skill'

Hell Marauder · Aug 21, 2006, 07:28 PM // 19:28

You don't hear mesmers complaining about touch rangers, nor from a good necro/ranger who can keep distance with touchies and happily degen away. In my opinions, touch ranger is a great way to keep population of noob warriors in alliance battles in check, or else AB will be overrun by melee classes. They also give mesmers and degen necro a reason to play in AB, so it's actually healthier for AB's ecosystem to have touchers.

glountz · Aug 21, 2006, 07:33 PM // 19:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mera Regila

Wither ends as well, but you can bring them down to 0 energy which is helpful. Her skillbar could kill pretty much anything else in ADDITION to touchers.

It seems you haven't any clue on Focus swap. Touchies have generally a +15 energy staff and a -5+ energy thing. That make 20+ energy swap. They focus swap, get rid of malaise, and have still 20 energy to use.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mera Regila

The whole REASON i suggested backfire for is because they couldn't use OoB to regulate their energy, and if they were stupid and did that would work too. You should pay more attention to the first post.

I paid attention and what you say is nonsense. Backfire has a 10 sec unincreasable duration for a 20 sec recharge. They will use OoB between the end of the hex and its recharge. And during all this time you won't shutdown them at all.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mera Regila

Not all touchers look at their effects bar before they use their touches, you could even hit them mid cast with it, they don't have to be dumb to be caught with diversion. Even if you cought an evasive stance, or an OoB with it, that would be equally good.

Like I said, you assume Touchies are crappy players.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mera Regila

The whole point is ordering your team to attack the touch, then using blackout. Wow, you have no idea how blackout works do you? It disables you for 5 seconds and the touch for 7-8, the touch is disabled for longer than you, he cant heal himself, or manage his energy, your team can kill him in that period.

I will repeat myself, as I doubt you understood my post. 1) Blackout is useful to call spikes (I said this). 2)You gain 2-3 secs over the touchie. Sorry, it's not a big deal. 3) You're assuming that you are organised with your team, with something like Vent, or that anybody will follow your call on the Touchie over squishy targets. That's exactly what I said, touchies need team communication and organised play to be countered, and need nothing to be played.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mera Regila

Do you think evasive stances last forever? Its a matter of target switching. You charge your combo on the touch, he uses evade stance, switch to one of the casters, kill the caster, switch back to the touchie.

And while this time, the touchie will be fully healed. Notice that touchies hunt warriors, that's not the contrary. Your warrior will be killed before he is able KD chain the touchie. Worst. A good Touchie will wait your first KD attack and hit an evade stance only at this moment.[/QUOTE]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mera Regila

ROFL, somone's never done serious gvg. If EVERYONE doesnt kite, your team is doomed from the start, a monk standing and tanking a warrior? GG. Runnign around to mitigate touch damage is a brilliant way to simply ruin their dps, they will give up and chase someone else, who will in turn, kite themselves.

I don't know what kind of GvG you do. But in my case, disabling an ennemy skillbar by simply forcing him to run and still doing damage is a brilliant move.
Kiting is the best damage mitigation way, as it don't ask you to put any skill on your bar. Still, you cannot cast while moving.
That's why you see so much warriors in the GvG metagame. That's why also you see warrior hate. But general warrior hate don't work against Touchies.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mera Regila

If a build is as EASILY counterable as this one, it is balanced. Touchies being clever coming up with a cross-class build:
The World: ZOMGZOMG IM SO NOOBY I GET PWNED BY TOUCH RANGERS!!! ANET, NERF, NERF, NERF THE TOUCHIES LIKE YOU DID EVERY OTHER GOOD BUILD ANET PLEASE HELP THE NOOBS!!!!!!!!!

You're making a fool of yourself. I wouldn't say the build is EASILY counterable as you say. Vamp damage is unavoidable. Stances forbid any way of direct killing. And crippling skills need to be followed and understood by the whole rest of the team, an impossible thing in AB and RA. A crippling shot ranger will see all its work useless if the Touchie use plague touch a non-kiting opponent. A mesmer will see its work useless if a monk or an ennemy mesmer remove your hexes or, being a priority target, die first.

I'm done with this thread.

Chewbacca Defense · Aug 21, 2006, 07:37 PM // 19:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ghull Ka

You guys have got it all wrong.

The REAL solution to touch rangers is: Donuts.

It's a known fact. Rangers love donuts. If a you meet a toucher, just toss a few donuts the other direction. The toucher will lose focus, scramble off to grab the delicious donuts and you'll be free to go about your business.

LMAO!!!

Curious thought, to any touch rangers out there:

If you were in the middle of touching someone and they decided to drop an ecto and run away, what would you do?

A. Stop and pick up the ecto.
B. Kill them in the hopes that your teammate would not go after the ecto.

Also, what's the lowest drop that would make you stop touching someone? (Blue, Purple, Gold, Green, Rare Material, Holiday Item, Ale, Shard, etc...)

IrishCatholicNewYorker · Aug 21, 2006, 07:42 PM // 19:42

ehhh.... touch rangers not my favorite people too see in a alliance battle. I think the reason people hate them is because there overused. I'm a lux and I was defending Kanaii (sp)? Canyon last week suddenly a whole touch team appeared XD I believe situations like this cause people to hate touchers. I'm a Me/Mo (with a build designed to take down warriors) if i have full enrgy and health I can usually (kinda) take a toucher but if I have 3/4 health and 3/4 energy the toucher will destroy me =( my biggest fear however is NON NOOB assasins.... eeee....

Alot of people believe touchers will soon be nerfed (I for one am not sure about this situation... but wouldn't be terribly dissapointed if they were) so here's my question do you think touchers will be nerfed?

LMAO donuts huh well I think I speak for mesmers when I say I would run for the donut. And hmmm if someone dropped an ale I'd go for that tooo I collect stuff that gets u drunk in the game.

XvArchonvX · Aug 21, 2006, 07:49 PM // 19:49

Greeeeeeaaaat. Yet ANOTHER thread to incite the whole touch ranger debate. *sigh*